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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2449
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
With dropsuit changes following hot on the heels of the big vehicle overhaul now is the time for the Great Dropsuit Massacre. Follow the same concept used by Assault Dropships and apply them to our suits. Here are my initial thoughts on how it would work:
Racial Militia Light, Medium and Heavy dropsuits remain available but give them the statistics of the advanced racial basic frames to make them more competitive.
Remove all the Basic Frames. They are just a distraction and are not widely used.
Only provide one each of the racial specialization suits. It should have the slots of the current line of prototype level suits but require training skills to achieve today's PG and CPU levels.
Sell them at the advanced specialization price. It seems like a fair price and will let rookies make some money in public matches once they don't die so much. If they do they can fall back to the new and improved militia suits.
The slot layout will close the gap between rookies and veterans as they can stack militia and basic modules. Veterans will still be able to build expensive and powerful suits through weapon and module choices. Rookies won't be receiving much if any of the benefits of the suits until they start training skills.
The skill tree will look like the one for Assault Dropships. This will allow for quick access to a specialization and all the racial variants but still encourage racial specialization.
Dropsuit Operation provides a 1% per level increase to PG and CPU and unlocks the specialization skills.
(Specialization) Dropsuit Operation provides an increase based on specialization and immediately unlocks the ability to use all suits of that specialization and the ability to train the (Racial) (Specialization) Dropsuit Operation skill.
(Racial) (Specialization) Dropsuit Operation provides the most important skill bonus to using a specific suit and unlocks further specialization skills.
(Racial) (Specialization) Dropsuit Specialization increases PG and CPU capabilities of a suit. Train this to 5 to achieve today's prototype suit level fitting capacity.
An example:
As a mercenary that wants to train into Minmatar Logistics I will...
Train Dropsuit Operation to 3 which unlocks Logistics Dropsuit Operation and also gives a small increase to the fitting capability of my militia suits. I train Logistics Dropsuit Operation to level one and I can now wear all racial Logistics but I can't fit them very well.
I now train Logistics Dropsuit Operation to level five and Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit Operation to level five and I'm receiving the full racial bonus for my preferred suit and can still switch to other races for their slot layouts to accomplish different tasks. I still can't fit all my high end modules though so I now train Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit Specialization to level five. At this point I have the full capability of the old Logistics mk.0 and can sort of fit all the other races. If I choose to cross train to another race I still have two skills to master but I can be wearing that suit while I'm working on it.
Benefits:
The path for rookies is much shorter.
The gap between rookies and veterans is reduced somewhat.
The market is much simpler.
Benefits come more from training skills than buying equipment.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2453
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
@KAGEHOSHI
I saw your threads after writing up mine. There are some others that are thinking along very similar lines to both of us. I'm hoping that CCP is already a step ahead of us and that we will be see some version of all our ideas in 1.8.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2453
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1696319
Dropsuit "Proficiency" thread ^
How to keep things like the minmatar logi hacking bonus in the game.
I can really see additional role specialization skills attached to the racial specialization skills much like the weapons have reloading, ammo and other fitting skills. Instead of earning these bonuses by training just the operation skill you unlock them for further character development and they become new SP sinks for veteran players.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2453
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Tiericide? Really, I can't believe I am seeing this again. It is not tiericide if you are just removing stuff, thats an outright removal. Lets remember that the tiers have a purpose, to give some experience before going all in to a potentially bad choice. IMO suit bonuses and tiers are a separate issue and should be kept separate.
You're kidding right? My proposal follows the current Assault Dropship path, let's you get into suits, try them out much earlier with much lower skill point investment and gives you the full range of slots.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2456
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Posted - 2014.01.08 17:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:I'm not familiar with Tiercide (Your post was TL;DR if you mentioned a good description of it, but I'll read it later), but I think the EVE system works very well.
It's a big change but I'll attempt to add a TL;DR.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2482
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Posted - 2014.01.09 15:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:1.) not what this game is about. Risk/reward is one of the core principals of this game
2.) it would not even help matchmaking. It's not an individual in proto gear that wins a game. It's squads of good players using teamwork that wins games. Forcing the same suits on everyone wouldn't change that.
Tiercide would also have a hugely negative impact on our future player market
The risk/reward concept is not removed. The majority of a suit's cost is in the level of modules and weapons added to it. I'm not suggesting tiericide of modules or weapons. A veteran player can choose to load up on high end modules and still create a suit above 200K.
I agree its the player that wins the game but there is a much bigger gap between a rookie in a militia suit with barely any modules on it and a super tanked veteran protostomper. With this design the gap will still exist but it'll be smaller and the rookie will have just a bit more of a chance.
Unless the game is dramatically reengineered for the market I don't see infantry gear being a physical item to be sold and moved around. Only large, durable goods, such as MCCs, vehicles and deployable structures will be player producible and those are not covered here. The rest are BPCs used to print on demand. How will this ruin the market for player traded BPCs?
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2520
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Try inserting brain first.
I'm here to present a concept and debate it's merits. With that comment you just invalidated your input.
Draco Cerberus wrote:I am really not sure why you would want to vanilla the classes up unless you have been suffering from protostomp ass burn, which I tend to cause even in my meta 1 gear.
You contradict yourself with that statement, tough guy.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2523
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:There are no benefits to your proposal other than for new players to streamline their skill choices into a given class, you tout your wares and offer no reason for their necessity. For instance, all the SP spent on the general suit before the class specialization would have to go somewhere and although I raise valid points for not doing this you ignore them and go to the vanilla part, my somewhat lack-de-wit reparte as a contradiction rather than discussing my reasoning with me, sure I may contradict myself but the proto involved is not the level of gear but rather the level of skills. Your idea is flawed, try arguing why it isn't.
Many players feel the basic frames are pointless and wasted SP. The gap between rookies and veterans is also very discouraging to the rookies. This idea is an attempt to close the gap and dramatically reduce the skill points required to get into the specialized suits without undermining the benefits of putting a lot of skill points into them.
CCP can either rework the basic frames to make them useful for something other than a very short stepping stone between militia and specialized or eliminate them and change how a rookie goes from militia to specialized.
I've mentioned Assault Dropships because I get the feeling that is how they may rework skill progression. In their case they chose to keep the basic dropship but with the minuscule amount of SP required you can jump straight in Assault Dropships without a grind. I think that is a great model for dropsuits too. If they want to rework basic frames though they need to be cheaper than specialized and they need to have some sort of bonus so that skills have a bit more impact on them.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2525
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Posted - 2014.01.10 14:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Did you know that although some people choose to skill up to lv5 of the general suit, there is no need to do this and you can already at a low sp level get into a class suit? Also the idea that all slots would be open on the suit that replaces the tiers leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, X suit has at Meta 1 LvL 2H/2L/3E (minmatar logi) now proto has 4H/4L/4E, this demonstrates to the user that there is progression and that the goal to reach it has benefits. Many players in this game have come from COD and other non team based games as well as from other genres of games, this kind of progression is intuitive, just like how to fire the AR.
I appreciate the concept but my problem with having level one suit at 2/2/3 and a level three suit at 4/4/4 is that the rookie is using basic modules with provide less benefit per slot compared to the veteran that is placing all high end modules in each slot.
Let's take shield tanking for example. A rookie may be using two basic extenders at 22 hp each (plus a bit of skill bonus) in two slots giving 44+ hp. They are also using a basic weapon with no damage bonus from skills. They now approach a single veteran that knows the terrain and has a high end bonused weapon. That veteran has all four high slots filled with 66 hp (plus max skill bonus) shield extenders for 264+ hp. I don't remember the shield skill numbers at the moment. Add in armor and it gets really bad. The shield difference alone is over 200 hp. Now add in the damage dealing potential of the veteran's better weapon and skills and you have a rookie that is wandering off to another game.
The intention behind this change is to let that rookie have four shields extenders that still only give less than one third the defensive capability of the veteran. Armor has less of a skill gap but the concept still applies. As the rookie works on his supporting skills he can slowly start replacing those weak modules with stronger modules and bring him closer to being competitive with the veteran.
This change would still give a rookie 12 militia suits to pick from and then be able to pick from 20 and soon to be 24 specialized suits. If the basic frames were reworked that would give an additional 12 suits to the roster. If CCP could focus on delivering and balancing 48 suits they could then move on to customizable frames or more specialities.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2525
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Posted - 2014.01.10 14:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:
If they want to rework basic frames though they need to be cheaper than specialized and they need to have some sort of bonus so that skills have a bit more impact on them.
This was done to encourage players to specialize, having bonuses and whatnot would go counter to the idea that being in an assault dropsuit is a benefit due to the added bonuses.
A skilled player should still get some benefit from the basic frames. If we compare to EVE then the militia dropsuit is a rookie ship, the basic frames are tech 1 and specialized suits are tech 2. The tech 1 ships still get bonuses but they are more generic. The tech 2 get bonuses that emphasized their intended role.
We could make all basic frames have something like this. Granted, it's being made up on the spot.
Light: +2% to sprint speed or -2% to profile per level.
Medium: -2% to racial weapon fitting requirements.
Heavy: +2% to racial defensive buffer efficacy.
Those benefits could carry over to the specialized frames or they could be replaced. The specifics are another conversation.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2525
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Posted - 2014.01.10 14:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:
Many players feel the basic frames are pointless and wasted SP. The gap between rookies and veterans is also very discouraging to the rookies.
Many players should have taken advantage of the optional SP respec when CCP offered it (when they changed requirements for proto suits). The gap would be much smaller. Lv3 in the general suit is all that is required and I believe exactly what you said you wanted, a mirror of the Assault Dropship skill progression.
A good move on CCP's part but it did make the prototype basic fairly unappealing. There needs to be something updated on them to make them more common.
Happy to have this discussion but I'm hitting the road. I'll be back in a day and may even check in at some point in between. Maybe some of this will spark something in the designers.
o7
Reav
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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